Tuesday, April 17, 2007

Operasi Train Jantan: Part 4

Yes, it's back.


Haha. And after a very "productive" weekend out with yours truly, dear Featured Spaz decided to hop onto the bandwagon and giddy up with the rest of us. And with that, Operasi Train Jantan takes in another self-sacrificing social worker. Read Operasi Train Jantan: Part 3 here.


So here's today's lesson:

A real woman who's ready for COMMITMENT
(yes, bigfatscary word to some men out there, I know)
will want a man with a plan.


What plan?


Well, not so much a plan, I guess. It's more like having at least a general idea and some part of his methodology down pat, to get to some specified destination and to arrive at it in a predetermined span of time.


You can't possibly expect a woman to see a future with you if you don't paint that picture for her in the first place. Much as love is a feeling, an emotion, a decision and a choice (all intangibles), we need some form of tangibility in the future. You need to offer her security. And yes, I've written on S.E.C.U.R.I.T.Y before so I won't dive into it. (Just bear in mind it's not just material security I'm referring to.) All I'm saying is that we've got the eyes. But it's YOU who hold the brushes this time (and the paint). You see, it's weird. It doesn't take a genius to know that (most) women dream of their wedding day, husband-to-be and family-to-come waaaay before they even hit puberty. No added explanation needed there, right?


Okay.


But when it comes to falling in love, they reject all ideas that they had in order to avoid disappointment. We've grown to believe in the If-you-fail-to-expect-you-succeed-to-avoid-disappointment Theory because, believe me, we do all we can to protect our hearts. Anything it takes, dudes. Anything. A woman's heart is fragile. Perhaps it's because we're comparatively more emotional beings. Perhaps it's cos we're just wired differently. Perhaps (just perhaps) it's because we were brought up that way. I don't know. Whatever it is, don't ever mess with a woman's heart.


*blink blink*

I've lost my train of thought. Dang.


Anyhew, as much as one rejects the idea, what happens when couples part ways is that (generally speaking) if the guy walks away, the woman gets terribly heartbroken – the shattered into a million-gazillion-pieces kind of heartbroken. But if the woman walks away, the guy usually gets a huge ego blow... and that's it. Very different effects that the dump-ee, huh.


Of course, there are guys who get heartbroken, too laaa. I'm not saying that there aren't. Take all this with a pinch of salt, okay. I'm GENERALIZING. Don't come and cari pasal with me about this. I will sakai you kau kau.


So what is it a man has to do?


Dream big dreams. Set goals.
Attainable ones, of course.
Just don't think like an airhead
and (hopefully) you won't end up with one.


I think I should stress, though, that it's not pretty pictures we want you to paint. Don't promise us the world and a million servants to wait on us hand and foot after marriage if you can't deliver. It creates expectation. And as we all know, Unmet expectation = Disappointment. Remember that. Promise her only what you can and will give and do. Empty promises kill whatever you seek to establish over the time you've shared. It disintegrates everything you've fought for and accomplished. It changes everything into nothing. Never ever make a promise you can't keep.


So tell her the truth. Let the choice be hers to make. Let her decide on her own that what you're offering is enough. And trust me, guys, if she really loves you like she says she does and you think she does, whatever you can offer will be enough for her. More than enough.


Love her rightly when she tests you,
and a woman in love will never fail YOUR love test.

Extend your hand after you've won her over
and she'll extend hers without a second thought.


Till next time, this is Tinki on Operasi Train Jantan. Adios!

47 comments :

zecount said...

*vigorously writing notes* ok this is sumthing i never knew ... it's ture i guess cos a guy is the one who leads

pamsong said...

Yups. See, it's not always about the lovey-dovey stuff that we want from our men. We want men with substance, too!

p/s: I had male insight in this one. I'm not shooting in the dark. Research has been done. Hah!

supersara said...

eh pam. i think this is upposed to be part 5. esther wrote something on it too, i guess that's part 4. so this is must be part 5! part 6 coming up when i get to think of it.

but we need male questions lah please. haiyah. any questions? =)

pamsong said...

Haha. I know. I read her post. But it's not a dedicated post wor. Summore the Operasi Train Jantan part is right at the bottom. Like her closing. If I lead ppl there then like no meaning liddat. Ppl have to read through her personal stories before they get to Operasi Train Jantan. That's why I didn't insert.

And how come you have Part 2: Episode 2? Apa maksud? Haha. Accounting off. Auditors needed. =p

adhojlim said...

Whoa...how come there are more OTJ's Queens blooming overnight...

OTJ1: Girls are eyeing on responsible, loving & affectionate men.

OTJ2 : Give it ALL = Commitment!
OTJ3 : Sincerity & act of service.
OTJ4 : Commitment with Security!

Ehem...I wonder whats next....Everything also the 'Betinas' pau ka-liau (want it ALL) =P. Kind of another 'female bible' in the making huh? haha =)(laughing)

Jamie said...

sara: want a question, i have one....
about sparks... after being in a relationship for a while, some seems to complain that the love have cool down... what can you comment on that?

pamsong said...

ATTN: adhojlim
– Haha. Pent up frustrations, my friend. It's all coming out. That's why.

Whoa. Chapter stops. Cools. Yeah, man. This should expand into a book. Every man should learn from it. EACH AND EVERY ONE.


ATTN: Jamie
– Waaa. Liddat la. Ask Sara and not me la. Too much. You wait.

Jamie said...

hey.. pam... no offence but dont you agree that people whom you dont you usually give unbiased answers without accounts for your past?
hope i finally nail you down to the ground

Leon said...

What issit about women that when you start dating, they wanna name the grandkids ?

Gurls! Take it one step at a time. Chill. Take a seat, and enjoy the ride.

Guys are not non-commital. We just want to take things as they come. We are not being easy going about relationships... we just know how to enjoy every step along the long journey called dating.

How many guys out there can promise the future? (And those who does is usually bullshitting anyway).

Build the future together. Chip in. Encourage him, whatever it is that he wants to do (and even if he fails at the end, it's the effort that counts).

Not many guys can be Prince William or be born as Tan Sri Francis Yeoh. Some might make it big, most others probably will not. But its the effort that counts. Some others are corporate high flyers, while many others are just slogging it out day to day.

Chill. Support. And you'll find your life much more enjoyable.

If all you do all day is think about whether your bloke is commited to you, mind as well go date your Patrick toy. I'm sure HE's commited.

pamsong said...

ATTN: Jamie
– Haha. No. I disagree. Even psychologists read up on their patients before approaching them on any matter. It's always good to understand the person's background for it shapes a large part of their worldview. If Sara doesn't know you, she'd be shooting in the dark.


ATTN: Leon
– Haha. No larrr. We do the naming-grandkids thingy BEFORE dating you guys. HAHA. You got the order wrong. =p

And trust me, girls do enjoy the ride. It's just that they wanna make sure they get somewhere after all that sitting around waiting. If it's heading nowhere, why get on the bus anyways? Might as well walk on our own cos we know exactly where WE'RE headed. See?

Okay. Just that MOST guys shy away from commitment. And don't say "no such thing." I KNOW GOT. First-hand. This guy I used to work with has been with his girl for 8 years but says he's afraid of commitment. They're living together and they behave very much like a married couple - she cooks, he pays the bills, etc... But he's still holding out on marriage. When I asked, he admitted to being commitment phobic. Sigh. Why la. He already sees a future with her. (I asked.) There actually isn't anything holding him back. Just the chills.

And sure, dating's fine. I'd rather the term "courting" but I see where you're headed. And yes, that's vital for it's the period you discover all the bad stuff that's hidden under your partner's lovey-dovey exterior. Dating/Courtship is a MUST. But I don't believe in long dating/courtship periods. The indefinite time frame isn't healthy. There's no direction. No end point. Dating/courtship could just go on and on and on. Unhealthy la.

And yeah. That's why I said, if you're gonna promise her a future, be sure to make it one that will come to pass. Bullshitters are everywhere la fren. That's why it's difficult for the girls to know who are the "real deal" fellas and who are not. Much as we'd like to believe that our radar's work fine, sometimes, we do get it wrong. Sad but true. When we do know, we run. Simple as that. Cabut lari and never look back. (In theory la. Sometimes it's easier said than done.)

Of COURSE it has to be a future TOGETHER. It's BOTH your future, right? How can the guy decide for both of them?! No la. I didn't say that. Perhaps my post implied that but that was far from my intention. It's no longer a "him" thing. It's a "them" thing and he has to realise that. Sure, he can (and should) lead. But a good leader takes the people under his care into consideration as well.

And come on, man. Any loving gf will encourage her partner to do well in whatever he wants to excel in. And yes, it's the effort that counts. But you're looking at failing. I'm looking at lying. That's the difference. One is where even HE gets disappointed. One is where only SHE gets disappointed. See the difference?

Nobody wants a Prince William la. He's not cute anymore. Plus, he just ended his 4-year relationship with Kate. Bleh. Bad example, man.

Yeah, perhaps that's why many girls out there have so many soft toys. Too many SOFT boys around who aren't taking up their roles as men. Heck, I have one, too!

Go, Patrick!

Leon said...

I never, ever make an exclusive big decision when it comes to relationship. I also never believe in men leading (usually that leads to disaster).

I discuss, with total thoroughness, stuff like which house to buy, which investment portfolios to pour money in, which business to get involved in with my partner. At ALL times. If either of us disagrees with something, then the deal is off. Plain and simple.

Why, you say, this coming from a chauvinistic male like me? Well, mainly it's because our gender differences can be a very big strength if they are working in tandem.

For example, I tend to miss out details such as fine prints, little missing numbers in account P&L statements and even shoddy interior work in a new home.

For that, I believe the ladies, who are definitely more detailed, can compliment the whole decision making process greatly.

(Just one example. There's plenty more on why I think two heads are better than one)

Anyway, I also think ladies makes the decision emotionally, which can be a plus point too, if counterbalanced properly by rational deductions.

Hence, I strongly disagree with you that men should lead in a relationship. Men who ALWAYS want to lead and show off their balls tend to have only a broken relationship to show at the end.

My relationships are always a democracy. Never a dictatorship. On both ends.

----

I also don't promise my partner the stars, the moon or Jupiter or Pluto whatever. In fact, I promise nothing, save for the fact that I will work hard to give us the best life possible.

And as I said, if I were to fail, then it is a good death. An honorable one. And that's all that matters.

So I sound soft? Scared perhaps?

Girls, believe high heaven bullshit all you want. For me, I'd rather keep my feet on the ground and believe my partner is, and will continue to try her very very best... And plainly, that's enough. Enough indeed.

pamsong said...

Topic: DECISION MAKING


Leon,

No, I don't think you sound soft, much less scared. Just that you think differently from a lot of men out there. You see, it's easy to SAY that you wanna share each and every decision with your partner. May men say that. Come on, it's only "reflex" to do it.

It's putting those words into actions that isn't as easy.

Hmmm. I disagree with you about the guy leading, though. Not that he makes the decision singlehandedly. What I mean is that he should give the relationship direction. Even in a democratic state, there's a leader. The guy should undertake that role. Not to direct and order, but to guide and light the way to "ease" (for lack of a better word) his woman's journey and lead her along the way.

Of course when it comes to big purchases (i.e. houses, cars, etc.) and investments (i.e. shares, businesses, etc.) it's only normal for such matters to be discussed as a couple.

Hmmm. You're different, then. Most men want the final say. The final decision. Honestly, I agree to that to a certain extent. Any more than that and I throughly disagree.

If you date, I'm sure you see her as (at least) your equal. The one who's got your back at all times. Right?

Men SAY that they see their women as all that and more but their actions disprove their statements. They want to hear what their women have to say. But the choice is theirs in the end - whether or not to invest in ANY deal, tangible or intangible deals.

Well, then it's too bad cos this way, what the heck are they dating a smart woman for?! It just tells me that they see the woman they date as a dumbo who's just there to meet their other needs. They start dating a smart woman but end up making her a stupid one who just listens and follows. Submission does NOT apply in these cases. It's about a partnership. Not a dictatorship.

If only more men thought like you do. I know a few but they are greatly out numbered.

I agree with gender differences working towards our advantage. It IS a strength. Unfortunately, some men oppose the estrogen injection into decision making. Especially the emotional part you mentioned.

Haha. Men who show off their balls end up with nothing but a broken relationship to show for their self exposure. Interesting. And interestingly, I agree. No woman in her right mind will stay around for that show. At least not one who's got her head screwed on the right way.

pamsong said...

Topic: Promises

Leon,

Hmmm. I don't believe in ZERO promises wor. Simply because of the picture painting thing. If you don't give her a rough sketch of what's to come, she'll never know till it does come. And for a woman, that's scary. Putting her heart in your hands without any inkling is like a hen dropping her egg into an invisible basket.

The willingness to work hard and give her all that you can is already a promise in itself wat. It is a promise that you'll do everything in your power for you both as a couple.

And no, it's not high heaven bull. Maybe male motivations and female motivations are different. Like for men, getting a good career is a top priority. For women, it's finding a good man and have a good family. That's where things go wrong.

Why?

Cos while they date and the man works to move up the ranks and earn good money (for their collective benefit, he says), all the woman sees is that he has made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to put his career goals before his future with her. It hurts but we bear with it anyways.

Why?

Dunno. Love makes us dimwits perhaps. Honestly. I don't know why we put up with it. We just do.

*knocks self over head*

Okay, I think I lari topik di. Dang.

Leon said...

Pam,

A smart women knows how to get the equal say in all decisions WITHOUT appearing to do so.

Catch my drift?

adhojlim said...

Pam,

Leadership thingy:
Usually a good guy will leads when he is allowed to do so. Showing leadership in the relationship is vital but approval from the lady is a MUST! That is why the concept of partnership comes in.

What will happen if a man leads too much and a lady just follows; the lady will feel secured in some ways but will tend to stress out when she realize that she lost a say in a relationship. Its kind of puppet playing and the sad drama continues...

How about the inverse, if a lady leads too much than the man, the man will loose his so called 'dignity' and the woman will tends to look down upon her partner.. that is when the door for all the evil thoughts opened...

That is why I believe leading in a relationship is not one to own but to share! If only both learn to take up the responsibilities to lead at different occassions, then there is where SECURITY in a relationship chips in...

What a man becomes is what kind of woman he has back at home and what a woman becomes is what man she has out there!

If both fails to become good leaders, then what can be done? Look to Jesus in prayers for answerlor... ask for knowledge and wisdom...ask and it shall be given...=)Hallelujah!

Promises thingy:-
Sure enough, no woman will want to lay down her life for a man who is unable to provide a promise and to keep it. Most of we men understand that... a promise is a commitment and good men will not mess with that. However ladies...remember this: men are still human and they still needed to be reminded at all times..Looks tough in the outside but who knows it could be fragile in the inside....hmm... the soft part that most women cant see...

Cheers, Adhojlim =)

pamsong said...

ATTN: Leon
– Ahhh. Zen.


ATTN: adhojlim
– Hmmm. Okay, a good guy leads when he's given room (and approval) to lead. Agreed.

Losing a say in a relationship - not cool. Not cool at all. Bad bad bad. I don't think she'll be secure in a relationship with no say. It's like being in a rollercoaster. Imagine the analogy. You're in a bucket seat, wrapped and buckled in, rails in front of you, study metal around you. You're supposed to feel secure, right? You're supposed to be able to trust in the machinery enough to relax. But do you? NO. Cos you have no say in the direction the rollercoaster goes. It just heads to wherever it wants to go and the coaster worker says, "Sit tight ah. I actually love you. But I'M the one manning the ride." Cannot la. Even if you trust, you'll still be scared. The same goes for girls who have no say in their relationships.

I don't believe in ladies leading. Unless it's about what brand of milk powder to buy or which cutlery goes better with her china. Other than that, the guy should lead but make his decisions with her in mind at all times. Women who lead often lose respect for their partners. It just happens when women wear the pants in the family.

"What a man becomes is what kind of woman he has back at home and what a woman becomes is what man she has out there!"

I disagree with the statement. It's very old school where the woman is at home and the man is outdoors. It isn't such these days. Ridiculously though, many fail to realise that women care for the house AND WORK. I'm not saying it's impossible to do everything. Many women do. But I think that with the change of roles, it's time the men pick up a broom or a mop. At least wash the dishes if she cooks. You know? I don't see why helping your partner isn't loving her.

And I doubt that these days (at least not the ppl I meet) nobody wants to lead. Nowadays with women moving up the corporate ladder, many are assuming leadership roles at the workplace. Problem now is that BOTH want to lead.

YES. A promise is a commitment. Sadly, many fail to grasp the idea.

And of course. Men are human too. They fail once in awhile. They let us down. BUT repetition of mistakes shall not be condoned, nor should it ever be tolerated. Especially those that rock the relationship all the way to hell and back.

Leon said...

Pam,

You know, this is gonna start another war (which i'm tired of fighting, by the way), but am i hearing this right?

The all-star feminist Pam Song thinks that a woman SHOULD NOT LEAD? (except in mild powder brands?)wow.

But then in the next statement, you also think modern women shouldnt be domesticated?

Ah... contradictions. Signs of weaknesses in ze Queen?

adhojlim said...

Haha..."What a man becomes is what kind of woman he has back at home and what a woman becomes is what man she has out there!"

it doesnt implies that woman should stay at home and men should shed off the responsiblity at home...it simply means that each party will have to compliment one and another. So woman, if you can lead in an organization...go for it and I dont see that your man will be saying No to that! No matter how smart you are at the workplace...things that are made from flesh & blood could only be sastified by its own kind! It works the same for us men....

Pamie, isnt that buying groceries for your family is the kind of acts that requires leadership in the small niche by itself. Decision making is always entice to leadership...isnt it? Man will not want to fight over this little specialty of yours.. and Im sure he wouldnt mind to give some inputs if asked..

If you want your man to lead....let him know and you will see amazing results. Automatically at the items that require higher decision, man will have to lead. Simply because to lead is to be responsible on the decisions in regardless of the outcomes. However if your man is 'weak' in leadership, it isnt that totally bad either...that will signifies how far you are willing to help your beloved man to get to the level of your expectations..Simple act that could goes a long way! haha =P

For you info, I do all the cleaning,moping and diswashing on my own..and that doesnt make me a lady... =P haha

Oh! Talking about repetition of mistakes...haha that will depend on your available bandwidth and how much you love your partner. I have seen lady still attached to the same old jerk even that person does not deserve her. Afterall...love conquers ALL!

Feels better with this? =))haha

pamsong said...

ATTN: Leon
– We're just going round and round la. Cos whatever the case, bottom line is that we're different. We offer different things, we expect different things. We're just wired that way.

And yes. I prefer a man who leads. But you HAVE to see what I mean by leading. Sigh. It's not about him doing everything HIS way. It's just that he's the one "chairing" the meeting. Or him even calling the meeting. You see? The decision-making process is still a democracy! By leading I mean, moderating the conversation you share as a couple. Not hogging it. If it's a discussion, let both voices be heard.

And, no. I didn't say that modern women should not be domesticated. All I'm saying is that with the "modern woman" coming into the picture, there is a need for men to be more open minded and understanding. If we share the burdens of bread winning with you guys, you should share the burdens of domestic chores, too. Pulling your weight at home. If you don't, get us a maid. Then we'll shut up about you not doing the damn dishes.


ATTN: adhojlim
– Hmm. I don't think that men will say no to women working their way up the corporate ladder la. Modern men wouldn't have a big problem with that. They shouldn't. It's ridiculous, really.

And come on la. Do you think that a woman who's aware of her worth WANTS and would rather have "leadership" and "decision-making" in grocery buying rather than have her hand in say, a business venture or a family investment!? Forget it. You guys can have this niche. Make it YOUR little specialty then. Thank you very much but no thanks.

And of course, whatever the case, it's the leader that takes the plunge when things go wrong. But if men are slacking off in the decision making, it's the whole family that suffers too.

Some men are not open to the concept of the woman being involved though. And that sucks. some men, however, SAY that they want their women involved but do nothing to the like when it really comes down to their actions. All talk, no action is USELESS.

Heh. I'm very much the cynic these days when it comes to the LoveConquersAll theory. Love DOESN'T conquer all. I want to believe it does but it doesn't. Sure, I will love and unfortunately, love isn't an On/Off button we can flick according to our whims and fancies. But should a partner bring more hurt, pain and sorrow than happiness, more problems that support... Then that love NEEDS to be killed. How can you keep loving when your love tank is dry and empty? You can't la, Adrian. So if the guy's a jerk, no matter how much you love him, for your own good, you've gotta dump him. Yeah. Sad but true. Aih, it's very subjective. I guess it makes a difference if you know your self-worth and realise that he really doesn't deserve you. It boils down to self esteem and self confidence. If you don't have that, then that jerk's all you've got and all you're gonna have.

adhojlim said...

Haha...another nerve on the stuck huh...Cool!

Grocery is just one of the examples and assuredly it is very basic. If the lady could not even handle the basic, then how can she handle the bigger investment and greater heights of decisions?

If my partner is to say go have the "grocery basic say"...I dun mind and will show her how amazing we men can do it in the area of soft skills....it is not the substance of the area of what you serve that counts but it is the value that surfaces. See the impacts?

When things go wrong in a relationship and the man is blamed for that, is that fair? Man does not own it on his own hand and likewise no women will want the man to be in control of everything. If we lead and control everything, will you be happy? If it is the inverse..hmmm.. I guess the ladies will despise us and accuse us of irresponsible.... So men are sandwiched in between these 2 scenarios. If you pushed your man too hard on this...your are not going to win his heart at all unless he gave in! But then you will say that he is not steady at all... So who loose... both loose and doom in the relationship circle.. So focus on the remedy rather than rolling with the accusations... =P

Of course I did not say that ladies should wear the pants in the family... but if the lady could show leadership in certain areas or occassions.. your man will say this 'Hmmm..not bad tough, I have a good helper'. Catch the light? That is when the concept of partnership comes in.

When both leads in different occasions, there is where the feel of the participation and importance in the relationship chips in= SECURITY.

Agree! I will say that a jerk does not deserve a commited lady. That will depends on your gap of tolerances and the capacity to accomodate that kind of love. If the -ve responses are beyond bearable limit, then of course most ladies will take a shot and shame on that irresponsible man. But be sure that you do not regret over the decision and do not look back! If you do, then it is not a decision but it is an excuse because you have not given up on the person.

No offence huh! Cheers=)

pamsong said...

Haha. Aiyo here we no offense offense wan la. It's not a dispute. It's a discussion. Sort of like a forum. To understand and be understood.

And now that we've gotten that settled, it's time for WAR! Haha.

Wei wei wei, you too much lor. How can you say:

"Grocery is just one of the examples and assuredly it is very basic. If the lady could not even handle the basic, then how can she handle the bigger investment and greater heights of decisions?"

Then what makes a man who doesn't first handle small things AUTOMATICALLY get to handle the bigger decision like you mentioned!? It doesn't make sense at all. If it takes small things to convince a man that his woman should have a say in the bigger scheme of things, how is it that the same rule doesn't apply to men. Why are MEN the DEFAULT one who jumps ranks and cut queue to get to the top immediately?! NO FAIR! I OBJECT!!!

This argument of yours is invalid. Me no agree.

All I can say is that if men want women who are just Queen of the Domestic, then forget about marrying the woman you love. Go get a maid. I heard that they're cheaper than girlfriends and require little or no emotional investment on your part.

No, I don't think that it's fair to fault the man in ALL cases when things go wrong. But if he assumes decisions, then, yes. To a certain extent, if a plan goes downhill, he is responsible. But come on. That's in theory. Since when do girls in committed relationships blame their guy for things that don't go according to plan?

And no. I don't want to lead and control everything. I just want to be ASKED what I think. Hell, I have a BRAIN too! Don't insult my intelligence by assuming I'm too stupid to brainstorm with a guy - worse, MY guy. Who says his brains are better than mine anyways? You see? I have the same edge as he does. It's just that I choose not to assume the leadership position. It's a personal choice. But just cos I don't wanna lead, doesn't mean I don't want to be in the committee. See?

Hmmm. I'm not saying I wanna push him into leadership and all. I'm saying men already AUTOMATICALLY assume leadership. What I want is that they take our thoughts, feelings and insight into consideration too when they make decisions. Not that WE should be the ones making the decisions.

And it's not that women cannot assume leadership. It's that men don't give us that liberty. They expect us to be excellent in our career but be perfect pets at home. So how does this help with the whole "Hmmm..not bad tough, I have a good helper'." It doesn't. It just fuels his idea of us being useless and weak.

Hmm. I don't think it's about shaming a man who's jerk-ish. It's about freeing yourself from the jerk. More inward looking than outward looking. If the woman is gonna go all out to ruin his life, then she still isn't free. She's still under his power. For him or against him, there's still a 'HIM' in the sentence.

I believe in what you said, though. About not having given up on a person if you regret and all you did was just an excuse.

Cheers!

adhojlim said...

Haha.. this is the longest blog I ever visited...getting interesting...=)

War with you girls...NO NO.. It doesnt brings any glory to the men if we fight for this war...See..It is Pamie who declares war upon the men...haha =P

Big or small are the tasks, most of we men do deal with it.. that is why we jump rank! Without solid foundation, how possibly we could be there? Afterall we are there because we could be a better provider in which is the substance that the ladies ever wanted (security). And Pamie , wouldnt you feel proud if your man is there?? If YES, then why object?

Okie..ladies...listen carefully: No good men will want a Queen of Domestic and be puppet and 'slave' at home.. So getting a maid as a wife/gf is totally invalid.. Most men will prefer to have a Queen of his heart and be a helper in the family. Remember God does not make you from our head to step on us nor make u from our toes. But God created you from our ribs..that is why I strongly do not believe that my girl will have no say. Imagine if I have a girl who is a follower, then everyday I also "sianlor".... I believe it works the same for other men...

Whoa, I like this statement from the Queen: "No, I don't think that it's fair to fault the man in ALL cases when things go wrong."

Thumbs up for you Pamie. But honestly, there are many girls out there who are quick to blame the men when things went wrong! Go far far away this kind of girl! I guess these "Betinas" also needed to be trainedlor...hahaha =P (Oh Yeah! I like that!)

Loud and Clear! You wanted to be a commitee member but not the President! Haha but the real fact is in the Board of Director... each and everyone of the members is capable of being a leader. So be prepared to assume the role!

Oh! and you want your man to lead...haha..I believe he lagi suka...lagi senang to make decision and just ask you a simple question 'Ok or not my dear?' hahaha =)) cheers!

Nisha said...

Hey adhojlim,

It's interesting the way you put certain things from your perspective which somehow you mentioned represent the views of most men, but care to elaborate in the following?

1)"Big or small are the tasks, most of we men do deal with it.. that is why we jump rank!"

Hmm...it's interesting to know that firstly, you are speaking for most men and secondly, what are these "big or small" tasks you are talking about?

And these tasks that you'll be mentioning and elaborating about, how is it indicated that you should jump rank due to these tasks?

2)"Afterall we are there because we could be a BETTER provider in which is the substance that the ladies EVER wanted (security)".

So, you seriously believe you're a provider of security and that women are the only ones who EVER need it?

How old are you, if you don't mind me asking, adhojlim?

Cheers!
Nisha

adhojlim said...

Haha...seems like Queen Pam is now running out of idea and trying to get her konco to speak out.. Wei..I see thru your cunning ways...=)))hahaha


Nisha,
First Question: Jump ranks! That is your question right? In the real physical workplace...most men do jump ranks but in the relationship perspective, as for me I dont think it is wise for us to jump rank. That kills the relationship if one is trying to outdo the other. So freedom and understanding is the key!


Question 2: "So, you seriously believe you're a provider of security and that women are the only ones who EVER need it?"

I like that straight question! Hmmm... Why not? if I do have a decent job and enough income to support the woman that i love...I think I won half of the battle to the SECURITY that ladies mentioned...hehe..the other half needs the emotional investmentlor... paiseh..paiseh..=)) Aiyooo..Nisha, ask your manlar =P ...sure enough to get the answer close to mine.

Hmm..however men do need security too from their respective partner. And that you girls should have known better... if you dont, then better find out!


Question 3: How old?
Wah! Go into personal profile di....hehe.. you will have to expand your radar to get to know that...Search in friendster and u shall find me... Btw, welcome to my friends circle.. Shaking hands and God Bless!

adhojlim=)

Nisha said...

Hey adhojlim,

Firstly, it is nice to know that you (representing the majority men in this world)believes:

"in the relationship perspective, as for me I dont think it is wise for us to jump rank".

As for your answer about security,

"if I do have a decent job and enough income to support the woman that i love...I think I won half of the battle to the SECURITY that ladies mentioned".

Being able to be the breadwinner of the family should be every man's PRIORITY in life, agree? Yet there are men who always and almost fail in the emotional investment part, so how are you going to advise your fellow men to work on that?

I mean does that also indicate that most men fail in life? I am sure you agree that winning half the battle is like NOT winning the battle at all, there is no victory in a battle partially won.

Go on, say more. I am listening with my ears wide open.

Cheers!
Nisha

adhojlim said...

Wa..Wa...Wa, smart question from a smart lady!

Q1: so how are you going to advise your fellow men to work on that?

Okay! Honestly! I dont intend to be an adviser. But men you know what to do when you went thru this discussion forum. Only you knows better about your partner and capture her while you still can..

Q2: Men failed in life?
I disagree. A person is defined as a failure only if he stops trying and completely giving up. However a man who is consider so called 'failure' in the eyes of a lady might not be 'failure' in another lady. So it ties to your expectations...ladies!


Q3: Winning half the battle is like NOT winning the battle at all?
Disagree... winning half the battle is rather than lossing the battle haggardly without an effort. So ladies...dont only focus on the outcome but look into the efforts... U will see amazing values in your man.


Nisha: You sounds like TV interviewerler....Reporter is your job? haha =))

pamsong said...

ATTN: adhojlim
– Okay, it's not my koncho speaking on my behalf. Has it every occured to you that it's cos of YOUR comments that cause people to want to know what you're getting at and asking you why you're getting at what you're getting at?

And no. It's not cos of a lack of ideas. I happen to have to work. Unlike you, it seems. Haha. I'll only reply your first comment which I didn't right now. No time la.

Anyway, haha. Yes, we are long winded here. Very much so. HAHA. Welcome to Tinki Talks.

Okay, you see, that "war" comment was a JOKE. Relax. You need to loosen your tie once in awhile and smell the pollution.

No la. Where got big or small tasks men deal with it? I don't see that lor. It has to be based on "In a relationship" status when all this tasks are measured la. Same like girls wat. So to me, there still isn't any foundation. And I feel the whole "better provider" thing is much debatable. Says who? Does that mean that a woman CANNOT earn more than her man? And if she does, does she AUTOMATICALLY get the leadership role? She can, after all, like you said, BE A BETTER PROVIDER to her husband who earns significantly less. See? A bit unfair right if you base it on earning power to provide.

The Queen of his Heart concept is nice. But... Sigh. Sadly, it starts off that way but it moves into Queen of the Domestic soon after. (Note: Generalizing again. Don't cari pasal.)

Yeah, I agree with it being boring if your girl only follows what you want her to do and nothing more.

Haha. Perhaps you should start blogging if you want a reponse to your operasi train betina. I can tell you, though, you'll be asking for trouble. Haha. Plus, you can't use that term. Find your own line, okay! Tsk tsk.

Hmmm. I don't have a problem picking up the roles that need be. I have a problem with not being given a role. =)

And NO. Who say I want him to just ask me, "Ok or not my dear?" Backside! I want the question to be, "What do you think about this?" "How do you propose we go about it?" "Any other suggestions for our situation?"

HAIYO! Like that la! If it's just to ask if "ok or not", might as well flip and coin. That's not what a brain is for wat! Yes/No answers can be given by dumbos too.

pamsong said...

ATTN: Nisha
– Hello, dear. Give it to him. =p

And I don't get it. See, the stereotypical male is coming out again. Just cos we ask questions, we're give the are-you-a-reporter line. Pfft. Reporter. Ugh.

And YES. There is no victory in a battle partially won. PREACH IT SISTA!

p/s: Haha. He's a couple of years older than you. =p


ATTN: adhojlim
– No need to be coy when it comes to your age, you know. It seems to only work on girls. =p

Hey hey hey. In the workplace women jump ranks if they're good too! What has it got to do with whatever we're discussing here? And no, it's not about outdoing each other. It's about MEETING the other.

I know men look for security from their partners too. Without a doubt. Just that we often look for them in varying degrees. That's what makes us men and women different from the other.

Hmmm. I have to say that I disagree with you about men failing in life. Whatever the case, in your relationship, you want to be the "hero" in your woman's eyes, right? And if you can't meet that, you can't force her to see that which isn't there. Effort plays a part. Sure. And expectation is one thing. I can't deny that. But at the same time, you can't possibly expect a woman to lower her expectations when she's considering a lifetime with this man. Why should she settle for less?

No, I think it's not just the outcome that matters. It's BOTH the outcome AND the means to the end. Think of it this way. The financial provider part of you is one runner in a 2 x 100m race. The other runner is the emotional supporter. The financial one runs first and makes it to the second one. But the second one runs his best but cramps up cos he's not been training well or hard enough. Do you still win the race? No. Sure, if the emotional support runner ends up crawling to the finishing line all he does is COMPLETE the race. Not WIN it. Different, okay?

I know efforts are important. Heck, I'm one who strongly believes in that. But effort BEFORE running is also vital. The crawling was a failure on his part to PREPARE and be ready for the race. It's still a failure on his part to prepare. See? And because of the emotional support runner's mistake, the financial provider also doesn't get his medal.

It just works that way la. Like for instance, if you find a woman who can cook you the best dishes in the world (speak to your stomach) but isn't stimulating your mind or thoughts, she still fails as a helpmeet. Cannot wan la.

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

Thank you for having the courage to admit that the questions that I have posed to you are smart, I do not have time to indulge myself and others with stupid ones btw.

No advice for your fellow men? But almost every comment entry of yours for this post were in many ways talking about the "shoulds and should nots" of your fellow men, and not forgetting your frequent phrase "Most of we men".

I mean I thought you must regard yourself as someone who has sufficient amount of experience or at least substantial exposure to make such comments.

Anyways, when you say "a man who is consider so called 'failure' in the eyes of a lady might not be 'failure' in another lady", care to give me an example if you have one.

As for your "Men failed in life", I did not state that, I was asking a question, I said "does that also indicate that most men fail in life?" And your definition is out of context, I am asking about men who fail to invest emotionally?

And it surely shocked me NOT to know that you believe that "winning half the battle is rather than lossing the battle haggardly without an effort", I've actually expected that answer but it sure as hell make it all the more sweet coming from the "MAN" himself.

And it is extremely interesting that you actually said " dont only focus on the OUTCOME but look into the efforts", is it safe for me to believe that the ranks that you (MEN)were talking about earlier are pretty much based upon efforts and not outcome?

Sigh...anyway thank you for your "time and effort" in answering my questions. This is not an interview, my questions would be touger if this was.

adhojlim said...

Queen Pam: Haiyo! Relaxslar fren! Its Friday mah...Queen also need to relaxs one what... U just said 'backside'...however cant smell your kentutler...=P

Blinfolded = cannot seelor....time for Pam to look for Jesus for revival! hahaha =) Are you now transforming into the Queen of Domestic... fuhyo..snap your picture and post it here. I want to see it! hahaha =P

That is not too bad.. sometimes she lift up her eyes really high = how many birds have you counted so far arr? =P

Okie, serious time....if a woman can earn better than the man...So any problem? i dont see any problem.. that is normal isnt it.. If I say that I want to be a better provider is one thing; its a commitment okay..and if my partner can earn better than me is another thing..catch the light?

Haha..if run one time..u didnt get the medal, then run another timelar until u getlar..why give up so easily? So simple right?

If my girl cooked the best dish and it isn't stimulating my mind or thoughts, she is not failing at ALL okay! She still deserve a pat on the back! Anyway....you can still eat outside wat? Why would I want to pin my partner down for a little things and make her feel miserable...Catch the ball? Wrong arguementlar Pamie..

haha =)

adhojlim said...

Nisha,

You are really sweet..the reporter thing is just a joke..No offence =)

I am who I am ...and that doesnt mean that I am better than other males okay! I am just sharing my views that I have in common with my friends out there. They knew who they are too..So they just being themselves.

Do halfway is dead and do nothing is dead...so what will you be suggesting to your man? Crucify him every corner..and wat do you get?
Sadness and nothing... and walk away with tears....Speak to your heart girl...Is that wat you want?

Appologize if I sound harsh...didnt mean it okay...and you dun have to reply to the above question.. Just knock hard on your heart...

If you really understand man, man is pretty goal oriented! Man doesnt not only focus on the efforts but the goal as well Nisha...Smile Ok?

Cheers,
adhojlim

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

I want what is BEST for me and my BEST is definitely not half won battles.

"I am who I am ...and that doesnt mean that I am better than other males okay! I am just sharing my views that I have in common with my friends"

Your "common sense" about women is not common, you seriously need to consider unlearning what you have and try as much as you can to gain insights through these posts that Pam is willing to share.

I am not offended in anyway especially when it is merely words of a stranger.

I will not have a partner whom I will have to crucify from every nook and corner because it will be extremely tiring and futile. The world is already a battlefield one needs to face head on each day, your partner should be your sanctuary that you look forward to go home to, not another battlefield to conquer.

My heart is not hard, it is definite.

Yes, I am sure men are goal-oriented, who isn't?

And just so you know, I was smiling since the first moment I started commenting, you humour me with your comments.

Cheers and have a good weekend,
Nisha

P/S Btw, my father used to be a journalist and he was brilliant while he was it.

adhojlim said...

Nisha,

Great! Thank God for that!Keep it up! And I am not in a battefield anyway....perhaps u did....hahaha.. =)laughing

And true that is no end to learning...that is why we are here right?

Yah! Be thankful to God since that you have a wonderful father. (at least you know not all men are bad).

You too...have a good weekend..Cheers, adhojlim

adhojlim said...

Nisha,

Forgot to say this earlier... If God dwells in you, I believe you will see things a different perspective.... I have experienced God in a different way...that is to the point of near death....that is why I appreciate things not as the perfect way as you do.. Anyhow... God be with you!

Thanks to Pam for all the hardwork in bringing the peoples together....Thumbs up!

Cheers,
adhojlim@hotmail.com =)

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

this will be my final reply to your last comment in this post to me, you are absolutely out of context but never mind, thank you for trying.

"Be thankful to God since that you have a wonderful father. (at least you know not all men are bad)."

My father is wonderful and thank you for agreeing, he's one of my biggest source of faith in humanity.

Cheers!

Pam,

Well done! You're definitely doing a lot of MEN out there a big favour by indulging them with your posts.

I reckon that you will not have a full basket of "renewed and freshly hatched men" after you're done with these posts but I am sure many will grow to be better MEN in their own ways.

Hugs,
Nisha

adhojlim said...

Nisha,
You are not a Christian I supposed.. so let it be...I am not trying to change your view and it is not my reponsibility... but please dont go overboard.

As a man, I did not view girl as bad as you think. If you insist, let it be.

"renewed and freshly hatched men?--I dont think you can change a man with the approach you are using right now...and it is not your responsibility.. Go home and change your man, and see how successful you are...Pam will have done better than you... Perhaps you will have to change the way you view men...and u will understand better.

Good Luck girl! =)

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

"You are not a Christian I supposed.. "

Firstly, I remembered a CHRISTIAN friend of mine told me that pre-assumption is a sin.

"If God dwells in you, I believe you will see things a different perspective".

Don't judge me because you don't know me, alright adhojlim.

And before you go ranting about me judging you, I never did, all I did was ask you questions that you somehow answered in a different context each time.

And different people experience God differently and no one is deemed to be better than another.

"that is why I appreciate things not as the perfect way as you do"

Tell me, when did I mention anything about perfect? Did you read me right?

"but please dont go overboard"

I beg your pardon, OVERBOARD with what? Are you referring to what I wrote to Pam about "renewed and freshly hatched" men? Pam will understand in which context I am talking about, which is why that reply was dedicated to Pam and not you.

Since, you seemed all upset about what I wrote, let me tell you what I mean. Do not take it literally, although I thought this was suppose to be an arena for intellectual exchanged of opinions and ideas.

Anyways, when I used the term "renewed and freshly hatched" I was talking about men who have the possibility of understanding women better (renewed ideas) and boys who already understands women the way women would ideally want them to be understood, boys who are going to be MEN (freshly hatched).

It was never my objective for someone I thought older and wiser (I was hoping) to not take a hostile front, like what I am feeling is happening here, no,no. Hey come on, be a man and just take this as an intellectual discussion.We agree to disagree.

"As a man, I did not view girl as bad as you think".

I do not think of you as anything, nope NOTHING, I did asked you questions to clear my understanding about certain qualms I have about your initial opinions but I still did not receive a clear answer and I left it as that, I did not jump into any conclusions, like you did of me.

And I HATE it when people who can't use their God-given head and heart to utter their thoughts and instead bring God into the picture, assuming that they themselves are all knowing because they have experience some miraculous moment with God that they deemed others never did.

One thing MY GOD taught me is to forgive even when people are out of line and I did while I was replying to your comment.

"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them". - Romans 12:14

Good day.

adhojlim said...

Nisha:

Okay! To be honest it struck my nerve when you quote "renewed and freshly hatched" men. That could spur out misconception and misunderstanding....

And I admire your guts of taking the space to explain... that not many girls have..=)

Okay! Since that you explain that way. Im sorry! I dont mean to offend you. Hate me not huh!

Feeling better =)) haha =)

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

Apology noted and accepted, no hard feelings.

Have a good weekend!
Nisha

pamsong said...

Whoa. You know what, guys. My brain's waaay too exhausted to comment tonight. Will do this tomorrow. I don't believe that my weekend's started and I'm still so far from feelin any part of it.

adhojlim said...

Nisha:
Haha =)...Sure. No feelings at all... But to clear your doubts on the questions:

1. Nisha: "But almost every comment entry of yours for this post were in many ways talking about the "shoulds and should nots".

Ans: The posted comments are personal and represent a group of men that I knew. A should to another guy is not always a should to the other guy. U know what I mean.


2.Nisha:".. someone who has sufficient amount of experience or at least substantial exposure to make such comments".

Ans: I can say that I experienced the goodness & bitterness of love. These have moulded me into what I am today... but I have not totally given up on love at All. So sharing is a way to encourage one and another.. not to show how better I am from the others. Hope you understand.

3. Nisha: "Your "common sense" about women is not common, you seriously need to consider unlearning what you have..."

Answer: Please dont say tbat because u dont know me either. Lets not judge each other and learns things together..Ok? =)


4. [Adrian: You are not a Christian I supposed].. What I mean here is I wanted to share further with you my experience with God but since that you are from other background.. I backed off and I do not want to offend you literally.. didnt know it spark your anger either..

As for the rest..its over and I have forgotten about that..no hard feelings too... hahaha =))

Lets be happy.. =))

I agree with you in the sense that you want the Best for yourself and that is pretty normal. When I said "dont only focus of the outcome but the effors" means that give love a chance and appreciate it while we still can. FYI, Im as a man, I do have high expectations too on the lady that deserve my life. Ordinary lady without charisma will not be able to impress me.. I believe it works the same for other men too...


I hope I did clear off all your doubts...if you have any further questions, perhaps u can write to me or post it here...

Cheers,
Adhojlim =) *winking*

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

My anger is precious to me, and I have to be honest that unless someone holds a significant mark in my life, I am not bothered. So, no worries.

"The posted comments are personal and represent a group of men that I knew".

If you had chosen to write this sentence above instead of "most we men" most of the time, I would have understood immediately. No generalization needed.

"So sharing is a way to encourage one and another".

All my QUESTIONS not statements were my means of asking about your ideas about things, I thought that was also an "invitation to share", but I guess somehow along the way, you took on the defensive mode to operate on your thoughts.

"Please dont say tbat because u dont know me either".

When I said "Your COMMON SENSE about women is not common, you seriously need to CONSIDER unlearning what you have..." I was not judging you aimlessly but in all your initial posts, you made a lot of statements using general terms. As I wrote my comments, I was referring to your statements.

And just to set the record straight, I think the judging department award goes to you for making a crude remark about my faith. I am not pissed off though because you're just a stranger.

"[Adrian: You are not a Christian I supposed].. What I mean here is I wanted to share further with you my experience with God but since that you are from other background.. I backed off and I do not want to offend you literally.. didnt know it spark your anger either.."

You were not sharing about your faith in anyway that I could possibly understand from, because you were merely using it as a weapon of defence. This is what you ACTUALLY said,

"You are not a Christian I supposed.. so let it be...I am not trying to change your view and it is not my reponsibility... but please dont go overboard".

Where is the sharing in that? But it's okay adhojlim, I really agree with you, it is not your responsibility, so we should just let it slide from here.

"didnt know it spark your anger either".

I was not angry with any of your comments, the only conclusion I came upon after you brought God into the picture is that there was no point in talking to someone who cannot hold his thoughts without getting all emotional.

"but since that you are from other background".

You are judging again,adhojlim. Whichever background you may choose to believe I am from, did your God teach you to think that my thoughts about things that we were discussing here any less substantial than yours? I believe your answer will be a resounding NO. Therefore, I am also very sure that was the reason why I never in a moment chose to bring the matter of faith into the picture.

When it comes to loving someone and having someone to love me back all the same, I am very fortunate. I have no qualms about how I want to be treated when it comes to love. I looked at both sexes, on an equal platform thus, I am sure men have ideas and wants when it comes to the person they love.

Thank you for clearing your thoughts,no need for further clarification, appreciated.

Cheers!
Nisha

adhojlim said...

Nisha: Okay! Lets not mess things up! And I am NOT judging you at all and the awards shall not go to anybody, I will not want to pursue this discussion with you further bcos whatever i said will be another mistake to you... So lets shake hands.. if you prefer to assume stranger as a word to address me rather than a friend.. then nothing I can do either..

However nice knowing you.. Cheers.

Nisha said...

adhojlim,

I am shaking your hands, and here's a HELLO adhojlim, to a new friend.

Cheers!
Nisha

pamsong said...

*blink blink*

What in the world just happened here?! Goodness! I leave you kids for ONE and a HALF days and this happens!? Tsk tsk tsk. Thank goodness you both shook hands in the end or else I'd have to bring the cane along. HAHA.

Whoa. That sounded so mummy-ish. I blame it on the prettiest stomach I saw today. Will post it soon. Such a beauty. Aahhh.

Anyway, RELEK LA YOU TWO!

p/s: The darn weekend's over. =(

adhojlim said...

Pam:

Whoa..mama lai liao.. I better hide first.. spare me with your merciful cane huh! Time to look for papa...=P

Waaa..larilar...=)))

pamsong said...

Haha. Smart. Run. You can run but you can't hide.

Post a Comment

I've had my say. Now, you get yours. =)